show me your guns!

[Mïnthe]

sooo i'm in the process of trying to find a good home defense weapon. i've never really felt the need before but due to some recent creepiness i'm on a hunt for something. my friend thinks i should get a shotgun due to the fact you don't need a permit and you have more of a chance of hitting something rather than a handgun.  though i have shot guns at mountain ranges and such, truthfully guns kind of creep me out >.<  i was seeing what you have or if anyone has any suggestions....

[Knivz]

Theres a couple hand guns I would suggest depending on what you would be most comfortable with. Some people like smaller handguns because the size makes them "less scary" without actually taking away the ability to relinquish life from those who cross you wrongly. Also, make sure if you do buy any kind of gun to take the proper classes or at least have someone you know who knows guns well give you a safety lesson and show ya the proper way of handling and shooting it before having one in the house.

This is a good brand and a pretty small
Kimber super carry ultra:




and if you dont mind a full size hand gun you cant go wrong with:

[Toie]

I hope you have come to the unemotional fact that you can and will take a life if you choose to wield a gun. You may *want* someone dead but if it came down to it, could you look them in the eye and pull that trigger? If you can say yes then you are either mature enough or psychotic enough to own and handle a gun. Choose your own adventure.

[Atrax]

Finally, a thread where my dickpics will come in handy.

[Knivz]

Choose your own adventure.

rofl

[Situuka]

While having a gun based on performance for certain situations is critical, so is ensuring you are able to hold it right when you use it. For example, I have big hands. So I grip a 1911 .45acp double stack much better than a smaller gun. I always look at where the tip of my index finger rests naturally. My palm is also filled comfortably without need for regripping between shots.

So I would suggest first finding guns that sit in your hand and fire well, and then narrow it down for home or auto defense as needed.

If you are looking for a good 1911 .45, Rock Island Armory makes a very good entry-level pistol. Couldn't tell you otherwise, as my experience with firearms is not extensive.

Hope that helps.

[Fildon]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

[kat]

This thread is disappointing. I didn't think it was gonna be pictures of your .98's or whatever.

[Knivz]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

[Xeer]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

What you're responding to is the typical Canadian "oh sweet merciful monarch guns are complicated" response to the idea that an individual should have access to a gun. 

[Atrax]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

What you're responding to is the typical Canadian "oh sweet merciful monarch guns are complicated" response to the idea that an individual should have access to a gun.

This confuses me, I was under the impression that in Canada even the animals carry guns.

[Xeer]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

What you're responding to is the typical Canadian "oh sweet merciful monarch guns are complicated" response to the idea that an individual should have access to a gun.

This confuses me, I was under the impression that in Canada even the animals carry guns.

It is also Bloodysoul we're talking about so be sure to let that sink in for a moment. 

He probably wants an unarmed public so he can have his way with them sexually.

[Woodwylde]

Personally, I think a gun in the hands of a fearful untrained person is more dangerous than an imagined threat.

I recommend if you are going to consider any type of weapon, you should first go down to your local gun club and take some lessons so that you learn to use, respect, and maintain a gun properly.

Depending where you live, you might be able to rent a selection of guns and fire them under the supervision of an expert.

If you are under threat, the second to last thing you want to do is to be firing a gun for the very first time under that kind of stress, when you could have practiced beforehand.

though i have shot guns at mountain ranges

Also, why are you shooting guns at mountain ranges?  You got something against the Rockies or Catskills or something?

[Fildon]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

Knivz... you have a military background or have had training, correct?

I am talking about the average person who, without training or proficiency, is not going to hit a target with any sense of accuracy when their lives are on the line. Buying a gun, having basic understanding and a few days training and shooting every once in a while is not really effective. Take a person with that level of proficiency, put a target 10 yards in front of them and watch them miss completely.

In a crisis situation, with adrenaline pumping, do you think the average person would incapacitate an assailant?

At least with a shotgun, their is a greater chance to hit the target without any proficiency, and the fact that you have a shotgun will give any intruder pause.

Oh, and Xeer - I have been around guns since I was 12.

[Xeer]

Unless you are actually trained in how to use a handgun, and have practiced extensively to get proficient in its use, a handgun makes for a poor choice for home defense.

Get a pump action shotgun - the goal of home defense is to stop a target as quick as possible, and a shotgun is much more powerful than any handgun, much easier to hit and disable your target, is a cheaper option than a good handgun, and even if you miss, any burglar or assailant is not going to stick around to see if your aim improves.

The drawback, of course, is it doesnt fit into a nightstand gun safe, which is where you should be storing your firearm.

However, if you have shot guns before, have received training and are willing to maintain your proficiency through monthly firing at a gun range, then get something that balances accuracy with stopping power. A 9mm will be more than enough for your needs, so take a look at any of these: http://www.best9mm.com/.

If guns really creep you out, then get a big dog and a Taser - http://www.taser.com/. Its effective, it will temporarily incapacitate your assailant, and will give you time to call for the police and flee.

You don't need extensive training and you certainly dont need monthly firing to "maintain proficiency"  A basic understanding of a handgun and a few days of shooting to get comfortable with it is good enough to have one in your house for protection. After that going out shooting every once in awhile is enough.
A shotguns good, but really be it a shotgun or a handgun, either should scare off anyone before any firing has to go off. Its a good visual deterrence before anything. In all honesty I wouldnt trust a taser for home defense, it might scare a person off but the recovery time after being tased is under 30 seconds and after that they are back up.

Knivz... you have a military background or have had training, correct?

I am talking about the average person who, without training or proficiency, is not going to hit a target with any sense of accuracy when their lives are on the line. Buying a gun, having basic understanding and a few days training and shooting every once in a while is not really effective. Take a person with that level of proficiency, put a target 10 yards in front of them and watch them miss completely.

In a crisis situation, with adrenaline pumping, do you think the average person would incapacitate an assailant?

At least with a shotgun, their is a greater chance to hit the target without any proficiency, and the fact that you have a shotgun will give any intruder pause.

Oh, and Xeer - I have been around guns since I was 12.

I've been around buildings since I was born but that still doesn't make me an architect.

[Zajiwa]

this is what i carry

i dont have kids so i just leave it on the headboard

[Câmara]

[Fildon]

I've been around buildings since I was born but that still doesn't make me an architect.

Thats nice, Iago...

[Roxey]

This is what I own: Magnum Research Baby Eagle .40 cal compact. Very accurate and elegant weapon.

[Câmara]

Love the American flag in the background, Precision. lolol

[Xeer]

I've been around buildings since I was born but that still doesn't make me an architect.

Thats nice, Iago...

Stop objectifying me, furry-apologist.

[Roxey]

Love the American flag in the background, Precision. lolol

haha it's a nice touch.. especially considering it's made in Israel.

[silektro]

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-seven/model-seven-synthetic.aspx
http://www.1911r1.com/Products/Firearms/Model-1911r1.aspx

my grandfather gave these (well older versions but remington hardly comes out with new models of firearms) to me before he died. i havent hunted in a few years now but i used to have a very good shot when i was an active hunter. i probably could use either as defense weapons if i have to, except for the fact they are high up in my closet and in locked bags.

[Rasek]

I like the idea of owning a gun, but I doubt I'm responsible or interested enough to make it worthwhile.  Neat to look at though.

[Rajj]

I see a lot of false information here and horrible suggestions. NEVER EVER EVER suggest a semi auto pistol for someone that isn't very familiar with weapons, especially pistols.

IMO if I was getting a gun for home defense, I'd pick a Taurus Judge or Super Comanche. Both are pistols that shoot .45 Long Colt or .410 Shotgun shells. Very good choices for home defense.

The Taurus Judge is a 5-shot revolver, and fairly accurate. The Super Comanche is a single shot break open pistol. It's a little more powerful and extremely accurate, but if you miss your first shot, you may be screwed.


Taurus Judge

Super Comanche

I would suggest one of these pistols over a shotgun because they're smaller and easy to maintain.

If you want just a straight up pistol, you can't go wrong with a .357 magnum. I own many many guns, but the gun I keep at my ready is a Dan Wesson .357.

I would suggest avoiding automatic pistols, period. A revolver will never jam, a revolver has more power, a revolver is more accurate, and a revolver is easier to clean.

Cleaning is a big thing when it comes to guns. After you shoot your guns you should always clean them, otherwise the barrels will begin to rust inside, your gun will lose it's accuracy, and eventually become completely useless.

This information is coming from someone who's been around guns since birth, and shot their first gun at age 4.

[Reä]

First learned how to shoot with a glock 22 and to this day it's still my favorite gun. Alas.. I don't own any guns. I'm around way too many kids to want to take the chance with them because they play with EVERYTHING that they can get their little fingers on. Instead, I have a bat that I keep in my room or in my car if I need anything.

[Guleed]

The only guns I need.

[Adversaries]

The only guns I need.

My thoughts exactly.


But I have an AA-12 and a Riot Shield for the ultimate home defense when there is multiple attackers.

[Isenvul]

[Roxey]

Another Desert Eagle owner... /fistbump

[Calali]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

[Rasek]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

[silektro]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

?

nsfw

http://i.imgur.com/AJIYb.jpg

DOn't hot link, even behind spoilers.  Just link.

[Rasek]

Thank you Silektro.

[Peeks]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

?

nsfw

http://i.imgur.com/AJIYb.jpg

DOn't hot link, even behind spoilers.  Just link.

rofl

[Atrax]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

?

nsfw

http://i.imgur.com/AJIYb.jpg

DOn't hot link, even behind spoilers.  Just link.

Look at all those white yuppies crowding around, you can almost hear their hushed excitement as they proclaim "it's a black person, just like on the TV!"

[Wylair]

[Inshallah]

The short answer is Remington 870, 12 gauge, 00 buckshot.  Easy to hit with in the dark, reliable, not prone to overpenetration, and if you put one round in a person's center mass they're not getting up again. 

If you do go the route of a pistol, make sure you have a solution to getting good sight alignment and sight picture in the dark.  Shooting on the range is much easier than shooting in pitch blackness.  I've been shooting since I was 9 and missed what would have been a laughably easy shot in the daytime, all because I could not see either of my sights. Talk with a gunsmith or google trijicon or meprolight (examples.). Laser sights are also an option but, like tracers, they reveal your position. 

I'm trying to avoid the wall of text, but there is much more that needs to be said.  You seem like you've come to terms with the possibility of having to kill someone and that is a good thing.  You also need to practice with your weapon of choice. 

I'm not the sole authority - not by a damn sight (pun intended,) but I'd be glad to continue the conversation or answer any questions that I can. 

[Inshallah]

Here's the semi-automatic version of the shotgun I recommended.  It's part of what I use for home defense. 

[Malvoiant]

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

?

nsfw

http://i.imgur.com/AJIYb.jpg

DOn't hot link, even behind spoilers.  Just link.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=493pL_Vbtnc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=493pL_Vbtnc</a>

[Peeks]

Dirty Harry would be one pissed off gnomie with all these automatics up in hurt.

[Rajj]

Dirty Harry would be one pissed off gnomie with all these automatics up in hurt.

You know, I used to have a .44 Mag with a 12 inch barrel. Really miss that gun.

[Atrax]

The fact that this thread got to 2 pages without a single mention of FPS Russia pisses me off all over the place.  So apparently I have to be the one to do it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8</a>

[Ranor]

The Taurus Judge is a 5-shot revolver, and fairly accurate. The Super Comanche is a single shot break open pistol. It's a little more powerful and extremely accurate, but if you miss your first shot, you may be screwed.

My cousin has a judge. It was the first gun I'd ever shot. Damn near knocked me down because I wasn't expecting it to kick like it did.

Fun gun though.

[Icypoke]

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/1911-carry-stainless.aspx
This is what I wish I had...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browning_Hi-Power
This is the piece of shit I do have. Fucking inaccurate as hell.

[Rajj]

The fact that this thread got to 2 pages without a single mention of FPS Russia pisses me off all over the place.  So apparently I have to be the one to do it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8</a>

This is because we're talking about guns. Not overzealous rich boy youtubers. FPS Russia is a joke.

[Wylair]

The fact that this thread got to 2 pages without a single mention of FPS Russia pisses me off all over the place.  So apparently I have to be the one to do it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8</a>

This is because we're talking about guns. Not overzealous rich boy youtubers. FPS Russia is a joke.

Yeah, the guy isn't even Russian either.

[Atrax]

The fact that this thread got to 2 pages without a single mention of FPS Russia pisses me off all over the place.  So apparently I have to be the one to do it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8</a>

This is because we're talking about guns. Not overzealous rich boy youtubers. FPS Russia is a joke.

Yeah, the guy isn't even Russian either.

YOU TAKE THAT BACK

[Fildon]

If you are thinking about getting a shotgun for home defense, this article might help:

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2005/09/10/the-home-defense-shotgun/

[Zigra]

Personally, I think a gun in the hands of a fearful untrained person is more dangerous than an imagined threat.

I recommend if you are going to consider any type of weapon, you should first go down to your local gun club and take some lessons so that you learn to use, respect, and maintain a gun properly.

Depending where you live, you might be able to rent a selection of guns and fire them under the supervision of an expert.

If you are under threat, the second to last thing you want to do is to be firing a gun for the very first time under that kind of stress, when you could have practiced beforehand.

though i have shot guns at mountain ranges

Also, why are you shooting guns at mountain ranges?  You got something against the Rockies or Catskills or something?

Cats must die!

But on a thread continuing note, I agree with the above sage wisdom of the Wylde one.  Went to a gun show recently, and as a noob, I wanted training.  Gun shows are a total waste of time if you don't know anything, and even if you do, this one was a swap meet of trinkets. I need the training so I'm headed to a local range and I'm going to take classes before arming myself to the teeth.

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

[Xeer]

Personally, I think a gun in the hands of a fearful untrained person is more dangerous than an imagined threat.

I recommend if you are going to consider any type of weapon, you should first go down to your local gun club and take some lessons so that you learn to use, respect, and maintain a gun properly.

Depending where you live, you might be able to rent a selection of guns and fire them under the supervision of an expert.

If you are under threat, the second to last thing you want to do is to be firing a gun for the very first time under that kind of stress, when you could have practiced beforehand.

though i have shot guns at mountain ranges

Also, why are you shooting guns at mountain ranges?  You got something against the Rockies or Catskills or something?

Cats must die!

But on a thread continuing note, I agree with the above sage wisdom of the Wylde one.  Went to a gun show recently, and as a noob, I wanted training.  Gun shows are a total waste of time if you don't know anything, and even if you do, this one was a swap meet of trinkets. I need the training so I'm headed to a local range and I'm going to take classes before arming myself to the teeth.

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

>posting as Zigra
>not using zignature

[Peeks]

Personally, I think a gun in the hands of a fearful untrained person is more dangerous than an imagined threat.

I recommend if you are going to consider any type of weapon, you should first go down to your local gun club and take some lessons so that you learn to use, respect, and maintain a gun properly.

Depending where you live, you might be able to rent a selection of guns and fire them under the supervision of an expert.

If you are under threat, the second to last thing you want to do is to be firing a gun for the very first time under that kind of stress, when you could have practiced beforehand.

though i have shot guns at mountain ranges

Also, why are you shooting guns at mountain ranges?  You got something against the Rockies or Catskills or something?

Cats must die!

But on a thread continuing note, I agree with the above sage wisdom of the Wylde one.  Went to a gun show recently, and as a noob, I wanted training.  Gun shows are a total waste of time if you don't know anything, and even if you do, this one was a swap meet of trinkets. I need the training so I'm headed to a local range and I'm going to take classes before arming myself to the teeth.

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

>posting as Zigra
>not using zignature

Shit got srs son.

[Fildon]

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

If you are serious about home defense, I strongly urge you to go for a shotgun over a handgun, at least until you have a high degree of proficiency.

Get something along the line of a Mossberg 500 - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3.

And then get a proper gun safe to store it in - http://www.gunvault.com/.

[Atrax]

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

If you are serious about home defense, I strongly urge you to go for a shotgun over a handgun, at least until you have a high degree of proficiency.

Get something along the line of a Mossberg 500 - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3.

And then get a proper gun safe to store it in - http://www.gunvault.com/.

I'm here at a crossroads of curiosity, where I kind of want to know, but at the same time, I don't want to know, but I'm going to take the...plunge.  Is the reason you like shotguns so much is because it's the only gun you can load your novelty dildos into?

[Rajj]

The reason people ideally take shotguns over other weapons is their spread and damage. The downside to having a shot gun is that they usually have ridiculously long barrels which will do you absolutely no good if an assailant is rushing you before you're able to pull the gun up in front of them. This is why I recommend a Taurus Judge, Smith & Wesson Governor, or a Super Comanche. All shot .410 shotgun shells, or .45 long colt. A .410 isn't going to match a 12 gauge in ballistics, but at 10 yards, they're going to wish they never broke in anyway.

[Xizwhoa]

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.
Keep finger straight and off trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Keep weapon on safe until you intend to fire.


Oorah!!!

[silektro]

having a well rounded arensal in the event of a zombie apocalypse is a great idea imo.

[Atrax]

The reason people ideally take shotguns over other weapons is their spread and damage.

...I am at a loss for words.

[Câmara]

having a well rounded arensal in the event of a zombie apocalypse is a great idea imo.

I approve this message.

[Fildon]

The reason people ideally take shotguns over other weapons is their spread and damage. The downside to having a shot gun is that they usually have ridiculously long barrels which will do you absolutely no good if an assailant is rushing you before you're able to pull the gun up in front of them. This is why I recommend a Taurus Judge, Smith & Wesson Governor, or a Super Comanche. All shot .410 shotgun shells, or .45 long colt. A .410 isn't going to match a 12 gauge in ballistics, but at 10 yards, they're going to wish they never broke in anyway.

Again, the only reason I would highly recommend a shotgun is if you dont have proper training, you dont have proficiency with your weapon, and you dont have the time or inclination to maintain that proficiency. You can get a shorter, 18 inch barrel with the Remington 870 or something equivalent - http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model-870/model-870-express-synthetic-18inch.aspx.

Rajj - why the Taurus Judge and not the Taurus PT809 or a Taurus PT92 or even a Taurus PT917? If you have the training, if you have skills, why not go for a 9mm?

[Knivz]

Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
Never point a weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot.
Keep finger straight and off trigger until you are ready to shoot.
Keep weapon on safe until you intend to fire.


Oorah!!!

I have to say that so often...

[Finnmcool]

I agree w/ Rajj. I got a Judge and it is a total bad ass.

[Fildon]

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

If you are serious about home defense, I strongly urge you to go for a shotgun over a handgun, at least until you have a high degree of proficiency.

Get something along the line of a Mossberg 500 - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3.

And then get a proper gun safe to store it in - http://www.gunvault.com/.

I'm here at a crossroads of curiosity, where I kind of want to know, but at the same time, I don't want to know, but I'm going to take the...plunge.  Is the reason you like shotguns so much is because it's the only gun you can load your novelty dildos into?

Atrax, do you want to know how one can be 100% sure that the only sex you have ever had has been your hand, various objects from the fresh food aisle, the occasional still warm home cooked pie or servicing one of your brothers?

Its because you use the term "novelty dildo."   

[Atrax]

As for taking a life in defense of the family,  I'd prefer to not use a gun and end the fun so quickly.  Geologists know how to dig a neck deep hole and use a rock hammer like a throwing hatchet... I'd have no problem going from zero to sociopath in the two seconds it would take for an intruder to come un without an invitation.  Anyone willing to break in with the intent of theft and harm has volunteered to be removed from society, and I will stand with him to defend his of choice of exit doors.

If you are serious about home defense, I strongly urge you to go for a shotgun over a handgun, at least until you have a high degree of proficiency.

Get something along the line of a Mossberg 500 - http://www.mossberg.com/products/default.asp?id=3.

And then get a proper gun safe to store it in - http://www.gunvault.com/.

I'm here at a crossroads of curiosity, where I kind of want to know, but at the same time, I don't want to know, but I'm going to take the...plunge.  Is the reason you like shotguns so much is because it's the only gun you can load your novelty dildos into?

Atrax, do you want to know how one can be 100% sure that the only sex you have ever had has been your hand, various objects from the fresh food aisle, the occasional still warm home cooked pie or servicing one of your brothers?

Its because you use the term "novelty dildo."   

Whatever man those cantaloupes came on to me.

[Zigra]

"Quote me as saying I was misquoted."

I'm actually not sure who agrees with me or disagrees, but I'm pretty sure Will Smith is here for a reason.

Things Zigra believes:
1. You have a responsibility to protect your family, and whenever possible, that responsibility includes saving the tax payers the cost of a murder trial.
2. Gun training should precede gun ownership.
3. A Mossburg 500 pistol grip short barrel is a good thing to be holding when the poo hits the prop. I don't own one or any "novelty" ammo.
4. I am not above administering a long and viciously cruel session of torture if my family were threatened (Law Abiding Citizen is an excellent introductory course).


Zigra,
I'm not currently a gun owner because I haven't needed one ...yet.

[Inshallah]

I would submit one more argument for a 12 ga. shotgun.  Seems to me that, at the end of the day, a large part of the question should resolve around the damage a weapon does.  Damage from a .45 long colt is acceptable and the same can be said for a .410.  A shotgun, on the other hand, is capable of horrific damage to flesh. 

Ballistic gelatin (see below) is used as a substitute for flesh to show us what a round is likely to do when it hits a person.  There are failings in the system of course - gelatin doesn't mimic the effect of rounds on bones, but it's a handy model and ... it's fun to play with.  ^_^

Here's a picture of ballistic gelatin that was hit with a 2 3/4" load of 00 buckshot, 9 pellets. 



The path of the shot can be seen as darker lines moving horizontally through the gelatin, from right to left.  The lighter clouding around the lines demonstrates a transference of kinetic energy which often results in additional damage to the flesh. 

The ruler at the bottom of the gelatin shows the penetration of the pellets measured in inches.   

From the outside, this is a picture of a nameless mid-sized animal shot with a similar load from 15 yards away.
 
This is the entrance wound. 

NSFW

http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9086/entrancec.png

And here is the exit wound

NSFW

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/6527/exito.png

This does give rise to the question "How much is too much?"  I was never sure that I knew how much was "too much," but I do know that a shotgun qualifies as enough.   


   

[Calali]

[Adversaries]

That'd be hot.... if they didn't have one foot in the grave already.

[Calali]

That'd be hot.... if they didn't have one foot in the grave already.

what? Their guns are classic models.

also

Potentially NSFW

http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20110624/bouncing_tits_05.gif

[Therm]

I would submit one more argument for a 12 ga. shotgun.  Seems to me that, at the end of the day, a large part of the question should resolve around the damage a weapon does. 

People aren't made to withstand bullet impact.

Anything bigger than a .22 and you're talking huge damage. You don't need a .50cal gun to kill someone dead.

Potentially NSFW

http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20110624/bouncing_tits_05.gif

You are the worst person ever.

[Adversaries]

That'd be hot.... if they didn't have one foot in the grave already.

what? Their guns are classic models.

also

Potentially NSFW

http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20110624/bouncing_tits_05.gif

Much better.

[Fildon]

i thank you all for your input. i have been more on the fence for a  shotgun, though i do consider the downsides to what Rajj was speaking of. i live in a small apartment  and i do worry about scatter shot destroying my possessions and also the consideration of it going through the doors/walls to my neighbors. and also the point of "being rushed" and the long barrel making it now just a gun shaped bat. but aside from that i believe i'm going to start off with one for the fact i have shot them before and i'm more comfortable with them all together. however after i take some classes and i'm better with my aim i am going to get something smaller. rest assured i will get proper training for whatever i choose. i fear them because i respect the fact that they are a deadly weapon and i'm not jumping into guns like it's a shiny new toy. @Zigra~ i understand your points . and though i have never been the damsel in distress type, the reality is that if it came down to it i would most likely be physically outmatched. i'm not wishing for war but i do need a battle plan.

When you go for training, see if they have specialized courses that deal with urban crisis situations - combat within 5 yards, adrenaline situation, minimal light, low to medium obscurity.

Also, would recommend a good self defense course along the lines of - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga  - because if the assailant disarms you, if you dont know some form of martial arts it will not be pleasant for you.

Also, get a 150 pound mastiff...   

[Atrax]

That'd be hot.... if they didn't have one foot in the grave already.

what? Their guns are classic models.

also

Potentially NSFW

http://us.acidcow.com/pics/20110624/bouncing_tits_05.gif/spoiler]

Let me get my funnel.

[Calali]

i thank you all for your input. i have been more on the fence for a  shotgun, though i do consider the downsides to what Rajj was speaking of. i live in a small apartment  and i do worry about scatter shot destroying my possessions and also the consideration of it going through the doors/walls to my neighbors. and also the point of "being rushed" and the long barrel making it now just a gun shaped bat. but aside from that i believe i'm going to start off with one for the fact i have shot them before and i'm more comfortable with them all together. however after i take some classes and i'm better with my aim i am going to get something smaller. rest assured i will get proper training for whatever i choose. i fear them because i respect the fact that they are a deadly weapon and i'm not jumping into guns like it's a shiny new toy. @Zigra~ i understand your points . and though i have never been the damsel in distress type, the reality is that if it came down to it i would most likely be physically outmatched. i'm not wishing for war but i do need a battle plan.

For the love of fuck this thread is a huge disappointment.

Seriously, where are all the dick picks?

my apologies... NSFW
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/impailedgail/stuffs/tumblr_kvj7jb7qlg1qarvg7o1_500.jpg

KNOBS ALL I SEE IS KNOBS

[silektro]

those guys have some really small dicks.

[Adversaries]

Some are grow-ers and others are show-ers.

[Fildon]

Was this taking during a convention for those suffering from Small Penis Syndrome?   

[Rajj]

Rajj - why the Taurus Judge and not the Taurus PT809 or a Taurus PT92 or even a Taurus PT917? If you have the training, if you have skills, why not go for a 9mm?

Because a .410 is a shotgun cartridge, which is the only reason I'm recommending the judge over anything else. I would also never recommend a semi-automatic for someone that's new to pistols. And if I was going to recommend something with stopping power as a pistol, I'd go for a classy .457 revolver.

I would submit one more argument for a 12 ga. shotgun.  Seems to me that, at the end of the day, a large part of the question should resolve around the damage a weapon does.  Damage from a .45 long colt is acceptable and the same can be said for a .410.  A shotgun, on the other hand, is capable of horrific damage to flesh.

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

[Inshallah]

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

12 gauge pistol.  Legal in the US with the proper paperwork.  I chose a shotgun with a stock as the recoil is more manageable.  Same reason I avoided a magnum round.  2 3/4" works fine.

[Rajj]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

[Smiddy Van Drei]

This is a Lee Enfield. British bolt action rifle. (303)

I have two WW2 US military training pistols too (.22lr)

I shoot for fun, really. I keep a springfield 1911 .45acp on my night stand, but I don't think I'll ever have to use it.  (No kids, just a clumsy girlfriend)

[Inshallah]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I agree we have differing opinions.

If it were just a difference of opinion I'd have stopped commenting a while back.  You're idea has some serious shortcomings.   

Your generalization that a .410 is adequate fails to mention that it is only marginally adequate and only with certain rounds.  A .410 with birdshot isn't going to have the penetration to hit vitals.  Remington does make a .410 round with 000 buckshot (3 pellets,) which would give you a better chance of getting the job done, but it is still offering something in the range of 300 ft lbs of muzzle energy (comparable to an average 9mm HP round.)  That assumes all of the shot hits the target.  Based on what I've been able to find in others' testing I still have doubts about the penetration of the 000 buckshot load. 

Moreover the .410 pistol suffers from a shorter sight radius, greater issues with control, a wider pattern and less muzzle energy than the shotgun I suggested. 

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon.

I offered that shotgun as an counter-example to your statement that, to your knowledge, a .410 was the largest shotgun available as a pistol.  I at no point advocated this as a home defense weapon.  I suggested a specific shotgun which is available with an 18.5" barrel.  The shotgun I presented requires no special stamps or paperwork beyond that required for any firearms purchase.

In the end we're arguing about nothing as OP has already indicated a course of action, but I think you're doing folks a disservice when you suggest a .410 for self defense.  A .45 LC on the other hand is a fine cartridge if it's loaded properly. 



 





   

 

[Atrax]

Was this taking during a convention for those suffering from Small Penis Syndrome?   

Why?  Did you recognize some of the faces?

[Fildon]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

I am wondering how hard the Taurus Judge would be to handle for the average person - whats the recoil on it from your experience?

[Rajj]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I agree we have differing opinions.

If it were just a difference of opinion I'd have stopped commenting a while back.  You're idea has some serious shortcomings.   

Your generalization that a .410 is adequate fails to mention that it is only marginally adequate and only with certain rounds.  A .410 with birdshot isn't going to have the penetration to hit vitals.  Remington does make a .410 round with 000 buckshot (3 pellets,) which would give you a better chance of getting the job done, but it is still offering something in the range of 300 ft lbs of muzzle energy (comparable to an average 9mm HP round.)  That assumes all of the shot hits the target.  Based on what I've been able to find in others' testing I still have doubts about the penetration of the 000 buckshot load. 

Moreover the .410 pistol suffers from a shorter sight radius, greater issues with control, a wider pattern and less muzzle energy than the shotgun I suggested. 

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon.

I offered that shotgun as an counter-example to your statement that, to your knowledge, a .410 was the largest shotgun available as a pistol.  I at no point advocated this as a home defense weapon.  I suggested a specific shotgun which is available with an 18.5" barrel.  The shotgun I presented requires no special stamps or paperwork beyond that required for any firearms purchase.

In the end we're arguing about nothing as OP has already indicated a course of action, but I think you're doing folks a disservice when you suggest a .410 for self defense.  A .45 LC on the other hand is a fine cartridge if it's loaded properly.   

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

[Rajj]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

I am wondering how hard the Taurus Judge would be to handle for the average person - whats the recoil on it from your experience?

It's not bad at all, really. You could easily one hand the gun.

[Inshallah]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

[Wylair]

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off that is illegal in all states in the union.

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

[Inshallah]

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

I suspect as much, but I don't know all states' hunting regs so I stuck with a generalization I was pretty sure I could prove if called to.    It's illegal in every state I've ever hunted. 

[Wylair]

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

I suspect as much, but I don't know all states' hunting regs so I stuck with a generalization I was pretty sure I could prove if called to. 

Okay, checked, Rimfire .22 is illegal everywhere, and otherwise only 2 or 3 that allow centerfire .22 for deer.

[Fildon]

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

12 gauge pistol.  Legal in the US with the proper paperwork.  I chose a shotgun with a stock as the recoil is more manageable.  Same reason I avoided a magnum round.  2 3/4" works fine.

100% guaranteed that the Super Shorty would be illegal up here, but it does look nice...   

Here is the url if anyone is interested - http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[Inshallah]

100% guaranteed that the Super Shorty would be illegal up here, but it does look nice...   

Here is the url if anyone is interested - http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

I don't know much about the Great North, but I get the impression they may not be as fond of things that go boom.  On the upside I hear y'all have some INCREDIBLE hunting up there.

[Rajj]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

[Wylair]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

Maybe if you're going to call out someone's bullshit that has shown that they probably know what they are talking about, perhaps you should also state why we believe you. Right now Inshallah has stepped up to the next step in credibility, but you are refusing to step up to match him, so why should we believe you over him? Cite sources or explain your experience on the subject matter, just saying what somebody says is bullshit does not make it so.

[Zajiwa]

pretty big thing to consider before buying, dont know if it was mentioned or not

just because some one breaks into your house, doesn't automatically give you the right to shoot them, you have to prove they had the ability, intent, and the means to do bodily harm to you.

means -weapon
ability- to use weapon.
intent- to use weapon.

you will have to prove said intruder possessed all three, or you'll be looking at manslaughter at best, murder at worst.

you can't go wrong with a .357 magnum.

you're a fucking idiot

that will take off her arm, fly through the intruder, the wall, fly across the street and kill little timmy in his sleep.

[Calali]

pretty big thing to consider before buying, dont know if it was mentioned or not

just because some one breaks into your house, doesn't automatically give you the right to shoot them, you have to prove they had the ability, intent, and the means to do bodily harm to you.

means -weapon
ability- to use weapon.
intent- to use weapon.

you will have to prove said intruder possessed all three, or you'll be looking at manslaughter at best, murder at worst.

you can't go wrong with a .357 magnum.

you're a fucking idiot

that will take off her arm, fly through the intruder, the wall, fly across the street and kill little timmy in his sleep.

lol

[Inshallah]

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

I never said a .410 wasn't capable of killing.  I do, however, think it is a marginal weapon for the job and is dependent on ammunition selection and favorable conditions to have a decent chance of getting the job done. 

As it concerns archery I can offer no comment as I'm not an archer.  The remark about a .22 was a real chuckle though.  I'll be sure to ask for the extra bouncy bullets the next time I go to the store - then I can forget about proper shot placement.   

I expressly told you I was willing to entertain your views if you could offer some manner of fact to support your position.  I even offered to reverse myself if it turned out I was incorrect.  And, lastly, my history was only offered to rebut your claim I was only relying on others' experience. 

I'll say it again - if you've got something concrete to base your opinion on, please share it.   

Facts > Opinions 

[Charax]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

[Atrax]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

We have something called "Black People", we live in a constant state of terror.

[Inshallah]

We have something called "Black People", we live in a constant state of terror.

Sure my black neighbor and I pretend to be friends, but he really just wants our womenfolk. 

[Rajj]

you're a fucking idiot

that will take off her arm, fly through the intruder, the wall, fly across the street and kill little timmy in his sleep.

Are you seriously implying that a .357 has more kick then a 12 gauge? And little "timmy" should have moved out of the way.

[Rajj]

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

I never said a .410 wasn't capable of killing.  I do, however, think it is a marginal weapon for the job and is dependent on ammunition selection and favorable conditions to have a decent chance of getting the job done. 

As it concerns archery I can offer no comment as I'm not an archer.  The remark about a .22 was a real chuckle though.  I'll be sure to ask for the extra bouncy bullets the next time I go to the store - then I can forget about proper shot placement.   

I expressly told you I was willing to entertain your views if you could offer some manner of fact to support your position.  I even offered to reverse myself if it turned out I was incorrect.  And, lastly, my history was only offered to rebut your claim I was only relying on others' experience. 

I'll say it again - if you've got something concrete to base your opinion on, please share it.   

Facts > Opinions

How do you propose I give you "concrete" evidence? Go out and video myself shooting someone at 10 yards with .410 birdshot? And regarding a .22, remember that president Mr. Lincoln? He was shot with a small caliber round and it turned his brain to mush. Should be evidence enough of how a .22 works.

[Inshallah]

How do you propose I give you "concrete" evidence? Go out and video myself shooting someone at 10 yards with .410 birdshot? And regarding a .22, remember that president Mr. Lincoln? He was shot with a small caliber round and it turned his brain to mush. Should be evidence enough of how a .22 works.

Of course I don't suggest you shoot anyone.  Any objective information on the terminal ballistics of a .410 using birdshot and buckshot would be a great place to start.  Use pictures, articles, whatever supports your position. 

Lincoln was shot in the back of the head with a .44 caliber derringer; and he didn't die until the next morning.  Not sure how that supports the proposition that a .22 fired into a person without regard for shot placement is an adequate self defense weapon (?) 

[Wylair]

Going back to the .22 on deer again, there is a reason they aren't used for deer. Used to help my dad during deer season at the game warden station where everyone would need to bring their deers in for inspection, etc. There were multiple instances of us finding deer that not only had the hunter's bullet in them, but a .22 in them as well from some previous hunter. I believe the record was a deer that came in with 6 previous small caliber bullets in him in addition to the hunter's bullet from various hunting seasons and idiot hunters illegally using .22 or smaller

[Rajj]

How do you propose I give you "concrete" evidence? Go out and video myself shooting someone at 10 yards with .410 birdshot? And regarding a .22, remember that president Mr. Lincoln? He was shot with a small caliber round and it turned his brain to mush. Should be evidence enough of how a .22 works.

Of course I don't suggest you shoot anyone.  Any objective information on the terminal ballistics of a .410 using birdshot and buckshot would be a great place to start.  Use pictures, articles, whatever supports your position. 

Lincoln was shot in the back of the head with a .44 caliber derringer; and he didn't die until the next morning.  Not sure how that supports the proposition that a .22 fired into a person without regard for shot placement is an adequate self defense weapon (?)

I never said a .22 was adequate for self defense. I just said that every weapon is capable of killing someone at 10 yards.

You want concrete evidence, here's a judge firing buckshot at 25 ft, which is almost 10 yds.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgla2tFe4Vc" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgla2tFe4Vc</a>

Here's ballistics at 10 yds

[Inshallah]

I never said a .22 was adequate for self defense. I just said that every weapon is capable of killing someone at 10 yards.

You want concrete evidence, here's a judge firing buckshot at 25 ft, which is almost 10 yds.

As far as the .22 goes, you are correct - you didn't suggest it as a personal defense round but rather an adequate deer hunting cartridge (unless I misunderstood you.)  I do agree that it will kill you at 10 yards if properly placed.   

I'll also concede the judge seems adequate for self defense using buckshot.  The spread is not as bad as I would have expected and penetration seems deep enough to reach vital organs.  How is it with birdshot? 

[Rajj]

I never said a .22 was adequate for self defense. I just said that every weapon is capable of killing someone at 10 yards.

You want concrete evidence, here's a judge firing buckshot at 25 ft, which is almost 10 yds.

As far as the .22 goes, you are correct - you didn't suggest it as a personal defense round but rather an adequate deer hunting cartridge (unless I misunderstood you.)  I do agree that it will kill you at 10 yards if properly placed.   

I'll also concede the judge seems adequate for self defense using buckshot.  The spread is not as bad as I would have expected and penetration seems deep enough to reach vital organs.  How is it with birdshot?

I can't find any ballistics for .410 birdshot that's any further then 3 yards.


I still feel like birdshot would be quite an effective round for self defense, especially against multiples. One round may not prove effective enough, but dumping a full 5 at 10 yards I'm sure will kill SOMETHING. Atleast blind them if nothing else.

[Wylair]

I never said a .22 was adequate for self defense. I just said that every weapon is capable of killing someone at 10 yards.

You want concrete evidence, here's a judge firing buckshot at 25 ft, which is almost 10 yds.

As far as the .22 goes, you are correct - you didn't suggest it as a personal defense round but rather an adequate deer hunting cartridge (unless I misunderstood you.)  I do agree that it will kill you at 10 yards if properly placed.   

I'll also concede the judge seems adequate for self defense using buckshot.  The spread is not as bad as I would have expected and penetration seems deep enough to reach vital organs.  How is it with birdshot?

I can't find any ballistics for .410 birdshot that's any further then 3 yards.


I still feel like birdshot would be quite an effective round for self defense, especially against multiples. One round may not prove effective enough, but dumping a full 5 at 10 yards I'm sure will kill SOMETHING. Atleast blind them if nothing else.

See the main problem with determining a self defense solution is you want something that can dead stop a guy that is on PCP and high on adrenaline. I.E. worse case scenario. You shoot a guy on PCP with a small round he isn't even going to notice.

[Atrax]

I never said a .22 was adequate for self defense. I just said that every weapon is capable of killing someone at 10 yards.

You want concrete evidence, here's a judge firing buckshot at 25 ft, which is almost 10 yds.

As far as the .22 goes, you are correct - you didn't suggest it as a personal defense round but rather an adequate deer hunting cartridge (unless I misunderstood you.)  I do agree that it will kill you at 10 yards if properly placed.   

I'll also concede the judge seems adequate for self defense using buckshot.  The spread is not as bad as I would have expected and penetration seems deep enough to reach vital organs.  How is it with birdshot?

I can't find any ballistics for .410 birdshot that's any further then 3 yards.

I still feel like birdshot would be quite an effective round for self defense, especially against multiples. One round may not prove effective enough, but dumping a full 5 at 10 yards I'm sure will kill SOMETHING. Atleast blind them if nothing else.

See the main problem with determining a self defense solution is you want something that can dead stop a guy that is on PCP and high on adrenaline. I.E. worse case scenario. You shoot a guy on PCP with a small round he isn't even going to notice.

That's why I keep some PCP next to my bed to make sure I'm on an equal footing.

[Adversaries]

Don't worry rainbow jumper will save you!!!


...or wait which one is the pink one?

[Fildon]

I still feel like birdshot would be quite an effective round for self defense, especially against multiples. One round may not prove effective enough, but dumping a full 5 at 10 yards I'm sure will kill SOMETHING. Atleast blind them if nothing else.

I am still wondering about how effective the Judge would be for home defense with the average person... 

Attached a video, where a hefty sized male fires off shots at a target 10 feet away. He appears to have had reasonable training with firearms, and going to assume that his proficiency is also reasonable.

Take a look at the first set of shots (using .45 long colt) - look at the abysmal fucking accuracy. Now, the shooter blames his piss poor accuracy on shooting too quick, but in a home invasion situation, you dont get to leisurely fire off rounds.

The second set he uses .410 shotgun shells (2:45 results).

The recoil doesnt seem too bad, but the guy is not a tiny person - not sure how big Mithe is (you know - the OP).

Rajj - take both sets of firings: in an adrenaline situation, with poor visibility and the possibility of a partially obscured target, would you still say that the average person with average proficiency and average training has a better chance of stopping an assailant with the Judge, vs a short barreled shotgun or a 9mm (again, for the latter, with average proficiency).

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ORlYmHtx78" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ORlYmHtx78</a>

[Rhooja]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

Wow you actually lock your door in Canada? I never have, unless I was going to be gone for over 24 hours :|

[Therm]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

Wow you actually lock your door in Canada? I never have, unless I was going to be gone for over 24 hours :|

I wasn't aware Canadians had anything to be paranoid about- besides, perhaps, Americans.

[Calali]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

Wow you actually lock your door in Canada? I never have, unless I was going to be gone for over 24 hours :|

are you kidding me? My husband can't even leave electronics in a locked truck of a car without the lid being ripped off and shit stolen. Screw Canada (Actually, this didn't happen to him, it happened to a coworker...ripped the trunk off, stole all the stuff ...all in a 45 min time slot in montreal.)

[Rhooja]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

Yeah, idk, I've never felt it to be a high priority, and I've never known someone who had a break in.

Granted if I actually lived in Toronto I probably would, but lolburbs so it's all good.

[Atrax]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

[Inshallah]

I can't find any ballistics for .410 birdshot that's any further then 3 yards.

I couldn't find an examination of .410 birdshot's (any size) penetration at a greater distance either. 

I did find this (all 12 ga, 2 3/4 inch,) which offers a conclusion to the question of shot size that I suspect would parallel a .410's performance.   

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXz_Aftj8rE&feature=related

Close in, birdshot is messy - farther away issues with penetration develop.  I'm not sure I'm sold on  the idea of .410 birdshot as a defensive round, but the .410 buckshot was something I'll have to back up and take a look at. 

That's why I keep some PCP next to my bed to make sure I'm on an equal footing.

Fuck me! Why didn't I think of that?  All these guns and no PCP.  No wonder I feel like I need a 12 gauge.  lol

[Therm]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

At which point, the most awkward romance in the history of mankind will happen.

[Atrax]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

At which point, the most awkward romance in the history of mankind will happen.

Like I'd ever want to play in to one of your fan-fictions.

[Wylair]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

At which point, the most awkward romance in the history of mankind will happen.

Like I'd ever want to play in to one of your fan-fictions.

And that was the day Atrax won over the heart of Georgina Washington.

[Atrax]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

At which point, the most awkward romance in the history of mankind will happen.

Like I'd ever want to play in to one of your fan-fictions.

And that was the day Atrax won over the heart of Georgina Washington.

She popped out those wooden dentures and went to town on my cherry tree.

[Wylair]

lol Atrax just msg'd me about that comment.

I was gathering information for a home invasion.

At which point, the most awkward romance in the history of mankind will happen.

Like I'd ever want to play in to one of your fan-fictions.

And that was the day Atrax won over the heart of Georgina Washington.

She popped out those wooden dentures and went to town on my cherry tree.

But alas the cherry tree was actually a miniature Ghengis Khan.

[Inshallah]

Since we're talking in part about what will incapacitate a person, this is a quick and worthwhile read:

http://www.thegunzone.com/quantico-wounding.html

It's geared for handguns but the principles are largely the same (overlooking the effect of higher velocity rifle rounds.)

[Wylair]

Since we're talking in part about what will incapacitate a person,

NO WE AREN'T, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TRANSVESTITE GEORGE WASHINGTON AND ATRAX'S GENGHIS KHAN SHAPED PHALLUS! THIS TOPIC IS 6 PAGES IT IS OVERDUE FOR IT'S NIGHTLY DERAILMENT!

[Zajiwa]

Are you seriously implying that a .357 has more kick then a 12 gauge?

no, im implying that a .357 will take her fucking arm off, are you implying that you hate america?

And little "timmy" should have moved out of the way.

not rly a valid defense in a court of law

[Inshallah]

NO WE AREN'T, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT TRANSVESTITE GEORGE WASHINGTON AND ATRAX'S GENGHIS KHAN SHAPED PHALLUS! THIS TOPIC IS 6 PAGES IT IS OVERDUE FOR IT'S NIGHTLY DERAILMENT!

Sorry, I forgot myself - It was the PCP talking. 

[Hoghead]

I would use the bird shot over the buckshot. The bird shot will be less likely to go through the walls and hit someone in the other room. I think i read an article about a special type or shot that was deadly up to 10-15 yards but wouldnt penetrate walls but I dont remember what it was called.

[Hanif]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

I have a tyre iron near my door.  Never had an issue yet.

[Woodwylde]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

I have a tyre iron near my door.  Never had an issue yet.

Well hell... if you get a flat that close to home, of course its not an issue.

[Hanif]

I found out about a flat when I was in my drive way a couple months back, and I still couldn't get the damned thing off. 

Wound up requiring kicking the iron with steel caps on to undo the nut.

[Wylair]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

I have a tyre iron near my door.  Never had an issue yet.

Well hell... if you get a flat that close to home, of course its not an issue.

Who the fuck is such a pussy that they have to use a jack and tyre iron to change a tyre? Real mean lift the car and unscrew the bolts manually!

Oh and don't say fabulous gay men either this is how they do it:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE3_04Y8Dmw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dE3_04Y8Dmw</a>

[Woodwylde]

I found out about a flat when I was in my drive way a couple months back, and I still couldn't get the damned thing off. 

Wound up requiring kicking the iron with steel caps on to undo the nut.

Did you break the lugs before you jacked up the car?

[Hanif]

Nope, it was just really tight.
Everything was done properly, just impossible to unscrew.

[Zajiwa]

just impossible to unscrew.

like your mother

[Câmara]

lolol

hi zaji <3

[Hanif]

just impossible to unscrew.

like your mother

Well, obviously.  Like anyones mother (unless they've only had test tube babies).

[Rajj]

Rajj - take both sets of firings: in an adrenaline situation, with poor visibility and the possibility of a partially obscured target, would you still say that the average person with average proficiency and average training has a better chance of stopping an assailant with the Judge, vs a short barreled shotgun or a 9mm (again, for the latter, with average proficiency).

Absolutely. My opinion is more based off of the fact that you've got 5 shots in a double-action gun. It's easier to throw lead down range when you don't have to pump. And there isn't an instance I can think of where it'd be quicker to pull out a shotgun then a pistol. I would recommend the S&W Governor over the Judge, as it has a 6 shot capacity but it's also almost twice the price. Also with a universal gun like the Judge, you could load your weapon as you see fit. For instance, one .45 long colt , three 00 buck, and a birdshot round to finish the job. Since your first shot will be your most accurate, and at point blank a birdshot round would probably do the most damage above all, it makes sense to load the gun that way. Spread and damage is usually the reason someone would chose a shotgun over a solid bullet, which makes a shotgun pistol ideal. More spread = less skill required to hit the target. Thus why I feel like birdshot is adequate for self defense.

no, im implying that a .357 will take her fucking arm off, are you implying that you hate america?

.357 kick isn't really that bad.  But this is coming from a guy that one hands a .44 magnum, so I guess I can't speak for everyone.

[Therm]

Are you seriously implying that a .357 has more kick then a 12 gauge?

no, im implying that a .357 will take her fucking arm off, are you implying that you hate america?

Yeah. Whatever gun you settle on, do not get magnum rounds.

You're basically doubling the kick for double the velocity, and it's unlikely you're going to need that added speed for home defense. Again, it's about killing little Timmy across the street.

And Rajj, you own a .44. Do you really think the average woman can withstand the kickback of a higher caliber weapon with no practice?

[Zajiwa]

.357 kick isn't really that bad.  But this is coming from a guy that one hands a .44 magnum, so I guess I can't speak for everyone.

and now we're done with this conversation

anyway, minthe, if you must have a gun, classes are not just good for teaching you how to use it, but also when you can use it.

there's only certain circumstances that using a gun on some one is legal, and simply breaking and entering is not one of them.

[Rajj]

Are you seriously implying that a .357 has more kick then a 12 gauge?

no, im implying that a .357 will take her fucking arm off, are you implying that you hate america?

Yeah. Whatever gun you settle on, do not get magnum rounds.

You're basically doubling the kick for double the velocity, and it's unlikely you're going to need that added speed for home defense. Again, it's about killing little Timmy across the street.

And Rajj, you own a .44. Do you really think the average woman can withstand the kickback of a higher caliber weapon with no practice?

Better question is why is a woman buying a weapon if she's never had practice with a weapon before. But are YOU implying a woman isn't capable of handling the same guns a man can? Oh yeah, pulling the sexism card.

But really, the kick on a .357 is less then that of a 12 gauge. And if kick's that big of an issue, just fire .38 specials through it. No I wouldn't recommend a .357 or anything of the type for someone with no experience. The Judge is the best suggestion I can make all around.

[Rajj]

.357 kick isn't really that bad.  But this is coming from a guy that one hands a .44 magnum, so I guess I can't speak for everyone.

and now we're done with this conversation

anyway, minthe, if you must have a gun, classes are not just good for teaching you how to use it, but also when you can use it.

there's only certain circumstances that using a gun on some one is legal, and simply breaking and entering is not one of them.

It depends on your state's interpretation of the Castle Doctrine. In NC, if someone enters, or attempts to enter your home unlawfully and forcefully, it is presumed that their intent is to commit an unlawful act with force or violence. In other words, if someone's breaking into my house, I have the right to shoot them because they're a possible threat to myself and my family. However, if I point the gun at them and they leave, it's unlawful for me to shoot them.

[Therm]

Better question is why is a woman buying a weapon if she's never had practice with a weapon before. But are YOU implying a woman isn't capable of handling the same guns a man can? Oh yeah, pulling the sexism card.

No, I'm implying you're a dipshit.

And yes, I'm going to make assumptions about a person based on their gender like any rational person, because like it or not, our society is sexist.

So I can assume she hasn't fired a gun before, or if she has, has little experience doing so. Grandfathers take their grandsons out to shoot, not their granddaughters.

I can also assume she would probably be bad with kickback in a relatively stress-free situation. You may be used to shooting things, but think about being terrified and then needing to lift a heavy chunk of metal that makes things dead and then make some other person dead with it. When you pull that trigger with it pointed at another human, you're making the decision to end a life. You've decided "I am more important than you".

And also, you are the same idiot that thinks .22 rimfire is hunky dory because of fucking archery. That's the most bullshit excuse ever. You don't know what you're talking about, and tried to say I was a sexist rather than admit you don't have a clue what you're talking about, like usual.

[Icypoke]

This thread is turning into shit. Too many retards claiming to know everything about firearms.
Seriously, I bet half of you guys that are arguing in here don't even know how to hold a gun
correctly.

Minthe, my honest suggestion is go to a range and try out some
different weapons. Find one easy to carry, and one that fits you right. You should know how
it's going to behave if you wind up needing to use it. Also, the point Zajiwa brought up is super
important. You need to learn the escalation of force. See if you have a local gun range that will
give table 2 classes.

Also, I noted earlier that you are leaning toward a shotgun. In my personal opinion, I would lean
away from Mossbergs, in favor for a Remington 870. My friends who have had Mossberg 500's
all got tired of them not feeding correctly and swapped em out for 870's. My dad got his 870 back
in the 70's and it still works like a dream.

Just for shits and giggles...
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-DGaNmtA0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BM-DGaNmtA0</a>

[Fildon]

anyway, minthe, if you must have a gun, classes are not just good for teaching you how to use it, but also when you can use it.

there's only certain circumstances that using a gun on some one is legal, and simply breaking and entering is not one of them.

It depends on your state's interpretation of the Castle Doctrine. In NC, if someone enters, or attempts to enter your home unlawfully and forcefully, it is presumed that their intent is to commit an unlawful act with force or violence. In other words, if someone's breaking into my house, I have the right to shoot them because they're a possible threat to myself and my family. However, if I point the gun at them and they leave, it's unlawful for me to shoot them.

The law varies wildly depending on the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

In Canada, have to rely on English Common Law and prove that any intruder had malicious intent, and thus discharging a firearm was an act of self defense. Given that authorities up here frown mighty fucking heavily on people acting like "vigilantes," having guns and taking the law into their own hands, good luck on that.

[Atrax]

.357 kick isn't really that bad.  But this is coming from a guy that one hands a .44 magnum, so I guess I can't speak for everyone.

and now we're done with this conversation

anyway, minthe, if you must have a gun, classes are not just good for teaching you how to use it, but also when you can use it.

there's only certain circumstances that using a gun on some one is legal, and simply breaking and entering is not one of them.

It depends on your state's interpretation of the Castle Doctrine. In NC, if someone enters, or attempts to enter your home unlawfully and forcefully, it is presumed that their intent is to commit an unlawful act with force or violence.

He's right about that, when my dad was in the military and we lived on Fort Bragg, a buddy of his had some one breaking into his house and stealing his shit while he was away on missions.  So one time he simply spread a rumor that he was going to be out of the country, moved his car, went back to his house, and waited with the lights off.  Some one came into his house and he blew them away.  Turned out to be some 16-year-old kid who was stealing his shit; dude didn't get so much as a slap on the wrist though for wasting him.

[Rhooja]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

I rest my case.

[Atrax]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

I rest my case.

What about Mexican Guncake?

[Woodwylde]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

A baby.

[Fildon]

Also, I noted earlier that you are leaning toward a shotgun. In my personal opinion, I would lean
away from Mossbergs, in favor for a Remington 870. My friends who have had Mossberg 500's
all got tired of them not feeding correctly and swapped em out for 870's. My dad got his 870 back
in the 70's and it still works like a dream.

There is actually a thread devoted just for that comparison:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?84085-The-Official-Remington-870-Versus-Mossberg-500-Thread

Also video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EkjLkDYFRY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EkjLkDYFRY</a>

[Atrax]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

A baby.

You are better than me.

[Rajj]

Better question is why is a woman buying a weapon if she's never had practice with a weapon before. But are YOU implying a woman isn't capable of handling the same guns a man can? Oh yeah, pulling the sexism card.

No, I'm implying you're a dipshit.

And yes, I'm going to make assumptions about a person based on their gender like any rational person, because like it or not, our society is sexist.

So I can assume she hasn't fired a gun before, or if she has, has little experience doing so. Grandfathers take their grandsons out to shoot, not their granddaughters.

I can also assume she would probably be bad with kickback in a relatively stress-free situation. You may be used to shooting things, but think about being terrified and then needing to lift a heavy chunk of metal that makes things dead and then make some other person dead with it. When you pull that trigger with it pointed at another human, you're making the decision to end a life. You've decided "I am more important than you".

And also, you are the same idiot that thinks .22 rimfire is hunky dory because of fucking archery. That's the most bullshit excuse ever. You don't know what you're talking about, and tried to say I was a sexist rather than admit you don't have a clue what you're talking about, like usual.

You're pretty bad at this whole internet thing, aren't you?

[Rhooja]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

A baby.

I thought that would have called for a steep stairwell.

[Inshallah]

sooo i'm in the process of trying to find a good home defense weapon. i've never really felt the need before but due to some recent creepiness i'm on a hunt for something. my friend thinks i should get a shotgun due to the fact you don't need a permit and you have more of a chance of hitting something rather than a handgun.  though i have shot guns at mountain ranges and such, truthfully guns kind of creep me out >.<  i was seeing what you have or if anyone has any suggestions....

It's not directly responsive, but some folks have offered suggestions that you find local professional instruction and it's good advice.  Here's the link for the NRA's course-finder. 

http://www.nrainstructors.org/searchcourse.aspx

It's a good place to start as they have courses ranging from firearms familiarity to home defense.  You might also be surprised at the number of women in courses.   

[Icypoke]

Also, I noted earlier that you are leaning toward a shotgun. In my personal opinion, I would lean
away from Mossbergs, in favor for a Remington 870. My friends who have had Mossberg 500's
all got tired of them not feeding correctly and swapped em out for 870's. My dad got his 870 back
in the 70's and it still works like a dream.

There is actually a thread devoted just for that comparison:

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?84085-The-Official-Remington-870-Versus-Mossberg-500-Thread

Also video:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EkjLkDYFRY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EkjLkDYFRY</a>

Yeah, I like both. I have a Mossberg .30-06 and love it, so I'm not knocking the brand.
I just prefer the 870 from trying a bunch of both out.

[Xizwhoa]

Just get an M-16 A4 and never worry about shit again.

[Dorsen]

Stock photo of my 870 express synthetic deer since I keep mine in the base armory...



I've only gone hunting with it like 3 or 4 times with the last time being 10 years ago.  Never hit anything.  I continue to purchase all of my meat at the commissary.

[Icypoke]

There is no reason a woman would ever need to use a gun. What recipe calls for a gun?

I rest my case.

really?.....

everyone, man and woman should have some sort of defense plan. personally i feel like and idiot for not having one already. unfortunately woman being the weaker sex are more often targeted and fall victim. not wanting to throw my personal business out there, but perhaps in doing so it may bring awareness that the world isn't safe and hopefully i can make others think of their own defense plans.
so i just moved to a new apartment at the beginning of the year. about a month ago i caught some guy watching me through the tiny cracks in my blinds. long story short, just  last week it has now progressed to him getting into my building and knocking on my door repeatedly around 3am. and when i wouldn't answer the door (of course) i then found him crouched outside of my kitchen window. the fact that he is was ballsy enough to break in my building and try to make contact has made me question wtf should i do? cops are useless -_- whenever i call them they show up way too late and the guy is long gone. and their response is always "there's nothing we can really do until he actually does something." and well fuck that! i don't want to sit around feeling scared and helpless, and i won't. i'm not looking at guns as the only solution, i have also invested in a surveillance camera and i have made my apartment manager and neighbors aware of the situation. regardless, even if he never comes back i still want to know that i'm trained and prepared for any situation whether it may require a gun or not. and i think everyone should. guns aren't for everyone , but for me whether it be creepers or zombies i want to be trained and ready....

Also, I noted earlier that you are leaning toward a shotgun. In my personal opinion, I would lean
away from Mossbergs, in favor for a Remington 870. My friends who have had Mossberg 500's
all got tired of them not feeding correctly and swapped em out for 870's. My dad got his 870 back
in the 70's and it still works like a dream.

eh, that sucks to hear. that's actually the one i purchased =P  my friend has had the same model for 4+ years and says he hasn't had a problem so hopefully i won't either.
 and thanks all for the helpful links. i'm currently enrolled in my first (and not last) course for shotguns and home safety at the end of the month and i'm really looking forward to it

Don't worry, a Mossberg 500 is an awesome weapon! It's just that the 870 is a personal preference of mine. It's also almost 40 years old and still kicking ass.

[Zigra]

Screw home defense Minthe,

...the best defense is a good offense.  Take a couple days off work and find a nice spot to bury this creep and hunt his ass down.  Poison in the mail, car bomb, garrote, force feed him pointsettas, jab a steak knife in his eye, ...and thats just for warm ups.

I know a guy...

Zigra,
that pred fumbled the punt when he came knockin

[Fildon]

Minthe - if you have an immediate problem, may I suggest:



A 150 pound Neapolitan mastiff is a solid first line of any home defense strategy... 

[Wyxxen]

My 1911