show me your guns!

[Adversaries]

Some are grow-ers and others are show-ers.

[Fildon]

Was this taking during a convention for those suffering from Small Penis Syndrome?   

[Rajj]

Rajj - why the Taurus Judge and not the Taurus PT809 or a Taurus PT92 or even a Taurus PT917? If you have the training, if you have skills, why not go for a 9mm?

Because a .410 is a shotgun cartridge, which is the only reason I'm recommending the judge over anything else. I would also never recommend a semi-automatic for someone that's new to pistols. And if I was going to recommend something with stopping power as a pistol, I'd go for a classy .457 revolver.

I would submit one more argument for a 12 ga. shotgun.  Seems to me that, at the end of the day, a large part of the question should resolve around the damage a weapon does.  Damage from a .45 long colt is acceptable and the same can be said for a .410.  A shotgun, on the other hand, is capable of horrific damage to flesh.

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

[Inshallah]

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

12 gauge pistol.  Legal in the US with the proper paperwork.  I chose a shotgun with a stock as the recoil is more manageable.  Same reason I avoided a magnum round.  2 3/4" works fine.

[Rajj]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

[Smiddy Van Drei]

This is a Lee Enfield. British bolt action rifle. (303)

I have two WW2 US military training pistols too (.22lr)

I shoot for fun, really. I keep a springfield 1911 .45acp on my night stand, but I don't think I'll ever have to use it.  (No kids, just a clumsy girlfriend)

[Inshallah]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I agree we have differing opinions.

If it were just a difference of opinion I'd have stopped commenting a while back.  You're idea has some serious shortcomings.   

Your generalization that a .410 is adequate fails to mention that it is only marginally adequate and only with certain rounds.  A .410 with birdshot isn't going to have the penetration to hit vitals.  Remington does make a .410 round with 000 buckshot (3 pellets,) which would give you a better chance of getting the job done, but it is still offering something in the range of 300 ft lbs of muzzle energy (comparable to an average 9mm HP round.)  That assumes all of the shot hits the target.  Based on what I've been able to find in others' testing I still have doubts about the penetration of the 000 buckshot load. 

Moreover the .410 pistol suffers from a shorter sight radius, greater issues with control, a wider pattern and less muzzle energy than the shotgun I suggested. 

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon.

I offered that shotgun as an counter-example to your statement that, to your knowledge, a .410 was the largest shotgun available as a pistol.  I at no point advocated this as a home defense weapon.  I suggested a specific shotgun which is available with an 18.5" barrel.  The shotgun I presented requires no special stamps or paperwork beyond that required for any firearms purchase.

In the end we're arguing about nothing as OP has already indicated a course of action, but I think you're doing folks a disservice when you suggest a .410 for self defense.  A .45 LC on the other hand is a fine cartridge if it's loaded properly. 



 





   

 

[Atrax]

Was this taking during a convention for those suffering from Small Penis Syndrome?   

Why?  Did you recognize some of the faces?

[Fildon]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

I am wondering how hard the Taurus Judge would be to handle for the average person - whats the recoil on it from your experience?

[Rajj]

You have your opinion, I have mine.

I agree we have differing opinions.

If it were just a difference of opinion I'd have stopped commenting a while back.  You're idea has some serious shortcomings.   

Your generalization that a .410 is adequate fails to mention that it is only marginally adequate and only with certain rounds.  A .410 with birdshot isn't going to have the penetration to hit vitals.  Remington does make a .410 round with 000 buckshot (3 pellets,) which would give you a better chance of getting the job done, but it is still offering something in the range of 300 ft lbs of muzzle energy (comparable to an average 9mm HP round.)  That assumes all of the shot hits the target.  Based on what I've been able to find in others' testing I still have doubts about the penetration of the 000 buckshot load. 

Moreover the .410 pistol suffers from a shorter sight radius, greater issues with control, a wider pattern and less muzzle energy than the shotgun I suggested. 

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon.

I offered that shotgun as an counter-example to your statement that, to your knowledge, a .410 was the largest shotgun available as a pistol.  I at no point advocated this as a home defense weapon.  I suggested a specific shotgun which is available with an 18.5" barrel.  The shotgun I presented requires no special stamps or paperwork beyond that required for any firearms purchase.

In the end we're arguing about nothing as OP has already indicated a course of action, but I think you're doing folks a disservice when you suggest a .410 for self defense.  A .45 LC on the other hand is a fine cartridge if it's loaded properly.   

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

[Rajj]

With paperwork and a 200 dollar tax stamp pretty much any weapon with non-explosive rounds is legal in the US.

The point of this thread was to recommend something that's easily attainable and an effective self protection weapon. You have your opinion, I have mine.

Simply stating, a pistol that shoots .410 shotgun rounds is most ideal in my eyes because it's a shotgun in a short, easily handled form. In the end, hit someone in center of mass with any form of firearm larger then a .22 will stop them dead. A .44 Mag is going to have a ton more stopping power then a 9mm, but they'll both do the job. Same can be said for a .410 vs a 12 Gauge.

I am wondering how hard the Taurus Judge would be to handle for the average person - whats the recoil on it from your experience?

It's not bad at all, really. You could easily one hand the gun.

[Inshallah]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

[Wylair]

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off that is illegal in all states in the union.

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

[Inshallah]

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

I suspect as much, but I don't know all states' hunting regs so I stuck with a generalization I was pretty sure I could prove if called to.    It's illegal in every state I've ever hunted. 

[Wylair]

I could've sworn .22 on deer was illegal in all states in the union.

I suspect as much, but I don't know all states' hunting regs so I stuck with a generalization I was pretty sure I could prove if called to. 

Okay, checked, Rimfire .22 is illegal everywhere, and otherwise only 2 or 3 that allow centerfire .22 for deer.

[Fildon]

I can't take you seriously because you're not acknowledging the fact that a .410 is a shotgun cartridge. And .410 is the largest shotgun cartridge that's legally places in pistols to my knowledge.

12 gauge pistol.  Legal in the US with the proper paperwork.  I chose a shotgun with a stock as the recoil is more manageable.  Same reason I avoided a magnum round.  2 3/4" works fine.

100% guaranteed that the Super Shorty would be illegal up here, but it does look nice...   

Here is the url if anyone is interested - http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

[Inshallah]

100% guaranteed that the Super Shorty would be illegal up here, but it does look nice...   

Here is the url if anyone is interested - http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

I don't know much about the Great North, but I get the impression they may not be as fond of things that go boom.  On the upside I hear y'all have some INCREDIBLE hunting up there.

[Rajj]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

[Wylair]

I said "legally" available at pistol length, as majority of states do not allow pistol length 12 gauges. Regarding the .410 cartridge, the 00 and 000 buckshot cartridges at 2.5 inch usually have 4 pellets. As 95% of encounters are with in 10 yards, any .410 load would have plenty of penetration to do the job. At 10 yards, birdshot will put a hole in you big enough for a beer can. Of course, you wouldn't believe that because I feel you're just doing searches on others' experience and not your own.  The .410 also has a very tight grouping, I am not sure what you've heard or where you're getting your information, the only reason a Judge will have a wider grouping then your suggested 12 gauge is obviously because of the shorter barrel. .The recoil on the pistol does tend to cause vertical spreading of buckshot loads, but at 10 yards that's not going to be an issue.

I'm not arguing that the 12 gauge isn't more effective then a .410, but for you to say a .410 isn't going to have the stopping power to kill someone is pretty ignorant. Would you stand in front of someone at even 30 yards with a .410? Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense. If at 10 yards you're not able to hit a target, you shouldn't be shooting a gun anyways.

People really underestimate the power of firearms. The biggest deer my dad ever killed was shot with a .22 at 60 yards. And people don't think a .22 is deadly?

First off, forget the 12 gauge pistol.  I don't care if it's legal and it has nothing to do with our conversation - neither of us have suggested using it.

Since you imply my experience is voyeuristic at best, I'll offer my experience here: I've been shooting for 31 years and hunting for 26.  I am a former Marine and spent 4 years as part of a heavy weapons platoon.  I've shot everything from black-powder to M-60's, M-249's, M-2's and MK19's.  I will however concede that I have not fired the judge. 

I do supplement my knowledge by reading facts (i.e. This is what we found firing x round into ballistic gelatin,) but not opinion (i.e. This is a good/bad cartridge for self defense.)

With regard to the spread of the judge vs. my suggested shotgun you first tell me the judge has a fine spread and then tell me that it would have a wider pattern "obviously because of the shorter barrel."  Seems like your words support my position that it would have a wider spread.  Thanks.

With regard to your next paragraph you offer a slew of assertions with little more than the assertions themselves to support the conclusions.  Would I be inclined to stand in front of a judge or any other firearm while someone fires it?  Of course not.  Very few people are stupid enough to try to stop rounds with their body.  Your implication here seems to be that, because I wouldn't stand in front of it, it must be a good self defense weapon.  I wouldn't stand in front of a .22 short either.  Doesn't make it good for the job at hand. 

Moreover your assertion "Fact of the matter is for someone not very familiar with firearms, a .410 pistol would be ideal for self defense." is still nothing more than your opinion-even if you call it a fact.

I do agree that you should be able to consistently hit your target before you rely on a firearm to save your life.  If you can't hit the target, keep training.

Lastly, that your father is hunting deer with a .22 (assuming rimfire?) is disappointing.  I'm willing to bet he had to pull off a head shot to take a deer with a .22.  Not only is that unethical, in most states it's illegal.  I'll explain why if you'd like me to.   

I'd be interested to see any work that you've done to flesh out (pun intended) the terminal ballistics of the judge.  It could be I am all wrong on this.  If I am I'll admit it, but right now I don't think I am. 

Back you to Rajj -

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

Maybe if you're going to call out someone's bullshit that has shown that they probably know what they are talking about, perhaps you should also state why we believe you. Right now Inshallah has stepped up to the next step in credibility, but you are refusing to step up to match him, so why should we believe you over him? Cite sources or explain your experience on the subject matter, just saying what somebody says is bullshit does not make it so.

[Zajiwa]

pretty big thing to consider before buying, dont know if it was mentioned or not

just because some one breaks into your house, doesn't automatically give you the right to shoot them, you have to prove they had the ability, intent, and the means to do bodily harm to you.

means -weapon
ability- to use weapon.
intent- to use weapon.

you will have to prove said intruder possessed all three, or you'll be looking at manslaughter at best, murder at worst.

you can't go wrong with a .357 magnum.

you're a fucking idiot

that will take off her arm, fly through the intruder, the wall, fly across the street and kill little timmy in his sleep.

[Calali]

pretty big thing to consider before buying, dont know if it was mentioned or not

just because some one breaks into your house, doesn't automatically give you the right to shoot them, you have to prove they had the ability, intent, and the means to do bodily harm to you.

means -weapon
ability- to use weapon.
intent- to use weapon.

you will have to prove said intruder possessed all three, or you'll be looking at manslaughter at best, murder at worst.

you can't go wrong with a .357 magnum.

you're a fucking idiot

that will take off her arm, fly through the intruder, the wall, fly across the street and kill little timmy in his sleep.

lol

[Inshallah]

At 10 yards any weapon is capable of killing. You're arguing that a .410 doesn't have the firepower to kill at 10 yards, and I'm calling you on your bullshit. Simple as that.

And yes, .22 is illegal now. It wasn't illegal here until 2002. And I don't really see it as anymore unethical then using a bow with non-bladed arrows. .22 will bounce around inside of a target causing the damage. Thus, no a headshot isn't necessary. But obviously I can't tell a marine anything because obviously your knowledge is superior to everyone.

I never said a .410 wasn't capable of killing.  I do, however, think it is a marginal weapon for the job and is dependent on ammunition selection and favorable conditions to have a decent chance of getting the job done. 

As it concerns archery I can offer no comment as I'm not an archer.  The remark about a .22 was a real chuckle though.  I'll be sure to ask for the extra bouncy bullets the next time I go to the store - then I can forget about proper shot placement.   

I expressly told you I was willing to entertain your views if you could offer some manner of fact to support your position.  I even offered to reverse myself if it turned out I was incorrect.  And, lastly, my history was only offered to rebut your claim I was only relying on others' experience. 

I'll say it again - if you've got something concrete to base your opinion on, please share it.   

Facts > Opinions 

[Charax]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

[Atrax]

I live in Canada and my concept of home defense is locking my door and having my feisty terrier bark a lot if someone approaches my house.

What the hell goes on down south that you guys need shotguns to feel safe?  Is it like Afghanistan or some other third world country?

We have something called "Black People", we live in a constant state of terror.

[Inshallah]

We have something called "Black People", we live in a constant state of terror.

Sure my black neighbor and I pretend to be friends, but he really just wants our womenfolk.